http://thealmightyguru.com/Wiki/index.php?title=Does_DNA_prove_a_god_exists%3F&feed=atom&action=historyDoes DNA prove a god exists? - Revision history2024-03-29T05:25:25ZRevision history for this page on the wikiMediaWiki 1.30.0http://thealmightyguru.com/Wiki/index.php?title=Does_DNA_prove_a_god_exists%3F&diff=51490&oldid=prevTheAlmightyGuru: /* Criticisms */2022-09-18T16:24:06Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Criticisms</span></span></p>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Because of this, I have a problem with P2. All the scientific evidence points to DNA having an entirely natural origin. It seems to be based on a more primitive RNA code, it is extremely messy with mutations, it's bad at filtering out unnecessary segments, etc. It does not appear to be intelligently designed at all. If the scientists are correct, P2 is wrong, and both C1 and C2 are wrong as well.  </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Because of this, I have a problem with P2. All the scientific evidence points to DNA having an entirely natural origin. It seems to be based on a more primitive RNA code, it is extremely messy with mutations, it's bad at filtering out unnecessary segments, etc. It does not appear to be intelligently designed at all. If the scientists are correct, P2 is wrong, and both C1 and C2 are wrong as well.  </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>An additional problem occurs with P2 in that <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">is </del>begs the question. How does the arguer know DNA is information? Because they believe it came from an intelligent mind. How does the arguer know it came from an intelligent mind? It has to because it's information. This is circular reasoning. It's not enough to just claim that DNA is information because you can't think of a natural cause, you must demonstrate why all the evidence which suggests it is informationoid is wrong, and that it was actually created by a designer with a purpose.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>An additional problem occurs with P2 in that <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">it </ins>begs the question. How does the arguer know DNA is information? Because they believe it came from an intelligent mind. How does the arguer know it came from an intelligent mind? It has to because it's information. This is circular reasoning. It's not enough to just claim that DNA is information because you can't think of a natural cause, you must demonstrate why all the evidence which suggests it is informationoid is wrong, and that it was actually created by a designer with a purpose.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I agree with preposition 3. All scientific evidence points to DNA arising billions of years ago, while conscious intelligence capable of creating information only millions of years ago. Of course, I always find this to be an odd allowance for the religious. They're willing to accept the scientific consensus of the Earth's old natural time line, yet they refuse to accept a natural origin for DNA. To me, this appears to be special pleading. It's as though they're arguing that everything is natural, except the things <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">that </del>they think their god created.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I agree with preposition 3. All scientific evidence points to DNA arising billions of years ago, while conscious intelligence capable of creating information only millions of years ago. Of course, I always find this to be an odd allowance for the religious. They're willing to accept the scientific consensus of the Earth's old natural time line, yet they refuse to accept a natural origin for DNA. To me, this appears to be special pleading. It's as though they're arguing that everything is natural, except the things <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">science hasn't yet fully explained, which </ins>they think their god created.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Conclusion 2 is also based on the presumption that DNA is information, so, unless P2 can be demonstrated, it too is faulty.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Conclusion 2 is also based on the presumption that DNA is information, so, unless P2 can be demonstrated, it too is faulty.</div></td></tr>
</table>TheAlmightyGuruhttp://thealmightyguru.com/Wiki/index.php?title=Does_DNA_prove_a_god_exists%3F&diff=51489&oldid=prevTheAlmightyGuru: /* Argument */2022-09-18T15:06:15Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Argument</span></span></p>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>C2: Therefore, only a supernatural intelligence (a god) could create it.<br /></div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>C2: Therefore, only a supernatural intelligence (a god) could create it.<br /></div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Religious apologists usually follow up this argument with other arguments for why only their god could be the one to create DNA.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Religious apologists usually follow up this argument with other arguments for why only their god <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">specifically </ins>could be the one to create DNA.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==Criticisms==</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==Criticisms==</div></td></tr>
</table>TheAlmightyGuruhttp://thealmightyguru.com/Wiki/index.php?title=Does_DNA_prove_a_god_exists%3F&diff=46203&oldid=prevTheAlmightyGuru at 18:15, 3 March 20222022-03-03T18:15:39Z<p></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: white; color:black; text-align: center;">Revision as of 18:15, 3 March 2022</td>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I agree with preposition 1; only an intelligent mind can create information, but preposition 2 has a lot of unanswered questions like, is DNA information? what is information? and, how can we tell the difference between information and non-information?</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I agree with preposition 1; only an intelligent mind can create information, but preposition 2 has a lot of unanswered questions like, is DNA information? what is information? and, how can we tell the difference between information and non-information?</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Information is that which increases understanding. Words and numbers are often used to help increase understanding, so they ''can'' be information, but that doesn't mean they're ''always'' information. For example, if you write a <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">text </del>message to your friend where you describe your day, that message is information, because the message allows your friend to know what your day was like. However, if you sent your friend a <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">text </del>message of words <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">typed at </del>random, that message would not be information, since no understanding can be gleaned from it.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Information is that which increases understanding. Words and numbers are often used to help increase understanding, so they ''can'' be information, but that doesn't mean they're ''always'' information. For example, if you write a message to your friend where you describe your day, that message is information, because the message allows your friend to know what your day was like. However, if you sent your friend a message of <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">the same </ins>words <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">in a </ins>random <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">order, even though it consists of the same words</ins>, that message would not be information, since no understanding can be gleaned from it<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">. Likewise, [[misinformation]] and [[disinformation]] are not the same as information</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>[[Image:Does DNA prove a god exists - Clouds.png|thumb|256x256px|Unguided natural forces often look designed to an intelligent observer, but this is merely an illusion.]]</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>[[Image:Does DNA prove a god exists - Clouds.png|thumb|256x256px|Unguided natural forces often look designed to an intelligent observer, but this is merely an illusion.]]</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Usually, it's pretty obvious what is information and what isn't, but sometimes something can look like information when it isn't. A text message of "hi" from one person to another is a small piece of information, but if a lightning bolt strikes the ground and leaves behind a scorch mark which looks like the word "hi," it is [[informationoid]]; it looks like information, but isn't. Despite the visual similarities, the lightning bolt is an unguided unthinking natural phenomena, and, therefore incapable of conveying meaning or understanding. We frequently see things in nature which are informationoid like rocks, plants, and clouds which appear to look like the letters, numbers, and symbols people use as information.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Usually, it's pretty obvious what is information and what isn't, but sometimes something can look like information when it isn't. A text message of "hi" from one person to another is a small piece of information, but if a lightning bolt strikes the ground and leaves behind a scorch mark which looks like the word "hi," it is [[informationoid]]; it looks like information, but isn't. Despite the visual similarities, the lightning bolt is an unguided unthinking natural phenomena, and, therefore incapable of conveying meaning or understanding. We frequently see things in nature which are informationoid like rocks, plants, and clouds which appear to look like the letters, numbers, and symbols people use as information.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Because of this, I have a problem with P2. All the scientific evidence points to DNA having an entirely natural origin. It seems to be based on a more primitive RNA code, it is extremely messy with mutations, it's bad at filtering out unnecessary segments, etc. <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">IT </del>does not appear to be intelligently designed at all. If the scientists are correct, P2 is wrong, and both C1 and C2 are wrong as well.  </div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Because of this, I have a problem with P2. All the scientific evidence points to DNA having an entirely natural origin. It seems to be based on a more primitive RNA code, it is extremely messy with mutations, it's bad at filtering out unnecessary segments, etc. <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">It </ins>does not appear to be intelligently designed at all. If the scientists are correct, P2 is wrong, and both C1 and C2 are wrong as well.  </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>An additional problem occurs with P2 in that is begs the question. How does the arguer know DNA is information? Because it came from an intelligent mind. How does the arguer know it came from an intelligent mind? <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Because </del>it's information. This is circular reasoning. It's not enough to just claim that DNA is information because you can't think of a natural cause, you must demonstrate <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">that it is not informationoid as </del>all the evidence suggests, <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">but </del>actually created by a designer with a purpose.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>An additional problem occurs with P2 in that is begs the question. How does the arguer know DNA is information? Because <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">they believe </ins>it came from an intelligent mind. How does the arguer know it came from an intelligent mind? <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">It has to because </ins>it's information. This is circular reasoning. It's not enough to just claim that DNA is information because you can't think of a natural cause, you must demonstrate <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">why </ins>all the evidence <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">which </ins>suggests <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">it is informationoid is wrong</ins>, <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">and that it was </ins>actually created by a designer with a purpose.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I agree with preposition 3. All scientific evidence points to DNA arising billions of years ago, while conscious intelligence capable of creating information only millions of years ago. Of course, I always find this an odd allowance for the religious. They're willing to accept the scientific consensus of the Earth's old natural time line, yet they refuse to accept a natural origin for DNA. To me, this appears to be special pleading. It's as though they're arguing that everything is natural, except the things that they think their god created.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I agree with preposition 3. All scientific evidence points to DNA arising billions of years ago, while conscious intelligence capable of creating information only millions of years ago. Of course, I always find this <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">to be </ins>an odd allowance for the religious. They're willing to accept the scientific consensus of the Earth's old natural time line, yet they refuse to accept a natural origin for DNA. To me, this appears to be special pleading. It's as though they're arguing that everything is natural, except the things that they think their god created.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Conclusion 2 is also based on the presumption that DNA is information, so, unless P2 can be demonstrated, it too is faulty.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Conclusion 2 is also based on the presumption that DNA is information, so, unless P2 can be demonstrated, it too is faulty.</div></td></tr>
</table>TheAlmightyGuruhttp://thealmightyguru.com/Wiki/index.php?title=Does_DNA_prove_a_god_exists%3F&diff=41237&oldid=prevTheAlmightyGuru at 21:02, 9 July 20212021-07-09T21:02:18Z<p></p>
<table class="diff diff-contentalign-left" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr style="vertical-align: top;" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: white; color:black; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: white; color:black; text-align: center;">Revision as of 21:02, 9 July 2021</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l23" >Line 23:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 23:</td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Usually, it's pretty obvious what is information and what isn't, but sometimes something can look like information when it isn't. A text message of "hi" from one person to another is a small piece of information, but if a lightning bolt strikes the ground and leaves behind a scorch mark which looks like the word "hi," it is [[informationoid]]; it looks like information, but isn't. Despite the visual similarities, the lightning bolt is an unguided unthinking natural phenomena, and, therefore incapable of conveying meaning or understanding. We frequently see things in nature which are informationoid like rocks, plants, and clouds which appear to look like the letters, numbers, and symbols people use as information.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Usually, it's pretty obvious what is information and what isn't, but sometimes something can look like information when it isn't. A text message of "hi" from one person to another is a small piece of information, but if a lightning bolt strikes the ground and leaves behind a scorch mark which looks like the word "hi," it is [[informationoid]]; it looks like information, but isn't. Despite the visual similarities, the lightning bolt is an unguided unthinking natural phenomena, and, therefore incapable of conveying meaning or understanding. We frequently see things in nature which are informationoid like rocks, plants, and clouds which appear to look like the letters, numbers, and symbols people use as information.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Because of this, I have a problem with P2. <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">If </del>DNA <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">is the result of unguided </del>natural <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">forces as scientists hypothesize from the available evidence</del>, <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">then </del>it is not <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">information</del>, <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">but informationoid</del>, and both C1 and C2 are wrong.  </div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Because of this, I have a problem with P2. <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">All the scientific evidence points to </ins>DNA <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">having an entirely </ins>natural <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">origin. It seems to be based on a more primitive RNA code</ins>, it is <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">extremely messy with mutations, it's bad at filtering out unnecessary segments, etc. IT does </ins>not <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">appear to be intelligently designed at all. If the scientists are correct</ins>, <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">P2 is wrong</ins>, and both C1 and C2 are wrong <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">as well</ins>.  </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>An additional problem occurs with P2 in that is begs the question. How does the arguer know DNA is information? Because it came from an intelligent mind. How does the arguer know it came from an intelligent mind? Because it's information. This is circular reasoning. It's not enough to just claim that DNA is information because you can't think of a natural cause, you must demonstrate that it is not informationoid as all the evidence suggests, but actually created by a designer with a purpose.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>An additional problem occurs with P2 in that is begs the question. How does the arguer know DNA is information? Because it came from an intelligent mind. How does the arguer know it came from an intelligent mind? Because it's information. This is circular reasoning. It's not enough to just claim that DNA is information because you can't think of a natural cause, you must demonstrate that it is not informationoid as all the evidence suggests, but actually created by a designer with a purpose.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Now, if, for the sake of argument, we assume that a god ''did'' create the universe, then determining if DNA is information depends on what type of god we're considering. If we posit a [[deism|deist]] god, one who set the universe in motion by creating fundamental laws which allowed the world to progress and evolve on its own, but didn't personally craft every thing in existence with a specific purpose (and doesn't care who wins the Super Bowl), then DNA still arose from natural unguided forces. So, for a deist god, DNA would still be informationoid, not information. If we consider a very involved "hands on" type of god, one that personally created DNA to be a recipe for living things (and does care who wins the Super Bowl), then DNA would be information. However, if we assume a god created DNA, it raises a whole new set of questions about why our messy genomes appear to be crafted, not through intelligent design, but through mutation guided by natural selection.</del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I agree with preposition 3. All scientific evidence points to DNA arising billions of years ago, while conscious intelligence capable of creating information only millions of years ago. Of course, I always find this an odd allowance for the religious. They're willing to accept the scientific consensus of the Earth's old natural time line, yet they refuse to accept a natural origin for DNA. To me, this appears to be special pleading. It's as though they're arguing that everything is natural, except the things that they think their god created.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I agree with preposition 3. All scientific evidence points to DNA arising billions of years ago, while conscious intelligence capable of creating information only millions of years ago. Of course, I always find this an odd allowance for the religious. They're willing to accept the scientific consensus of the Earth's old natural time line, yet they refuse to accept a natural origin for DNA. To me, this appears to be special pleading. It's as though they're arguing that everything is natural, except the things that they think their god created.</div></td></tr>
</table>TheAlmightyGuruhttp://thealmightyguru.com/Wiki/index.php?title=Does_DNA_prove_a_god_exists%3F&diff=41236&oldid=prevTheAlmightyGuru at 20:51, 9 July 20212021-07-09T20:51:08Z<p></p>
<table class="diff diff-contentalign-left" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr style="vertical-align: top;" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: white; color:black; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: white; color:black; text-align: center;">Revision as of 20:51, 9 July 2021</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l21" >Line 21:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 21:</td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>[[Image:Does DNA prove a god exists - Clouds.png|thumb|256x256px|Unguided natural forces often look designed to an intelligent observer, but this is merely an illusion.]]</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>[[Image:Does DNA prove a god exists - Clouds.png|thumb|256x256px|Unguided natural forces often look designed to an intelligent observer, but this is merely an illusion.]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Usually it's pretty obvious what is information and what isn't, but sometimes something can look like information when it isn't. A text message of "hi" from one person to another is a small piece of information, but if a lightning bolt strikes the ground and leaves behind a scorch mark which looks like the word "hi," it is [[informationoid]]; it looks like information, but isn't. Despite the visual similarities, the lightning bolt is an unguided unthinking natural phenomena, and, therefore incapable of conveying meaning or understanding. We frequently see things in nature which are informationoid like rocks, plants, and clouds which appear to look like the letters, numbers, and symbols people use as information.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Usually<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">, </ins>it's pretty obvious what is information and what isn't, but sometimes something can look like information when it isn't. A text message of "hi" from one person to another is a small piece of information, but if a lightning bolt strikes the ground and leaves behind a scorch mark which looks like the word "hi," it is [[informationoid]]; it looks like information, but isn't. Despite the visual similarities, the lightning bolt is an unguided unthinking natural phenomena, and, therefore incapable of conveying meaning or understanding. We frequently see things in nature which are informationoid like rocks, plants, and clouds which appear to look like the letters, numbers, and symbols people use as information.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Because of this, I have a problem with P2. If DNA is the result of unguided natural forces as scientists hypothesize from the available evidence, then it is not <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">information. It also means that conclusion 1 becomes circular reasoning. How does the arguer know DNA is information? Because it came from an intelligent mind. How does the arguer know it came from an intelligent mind? Because it's information. This is faulty logic. If you want to claim that DNA is </del>information, <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">you must demonstrate that it is not </del>informationoid <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">as all the evidence suggests</del>, <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">but actually created by a designer with a purpose</del>.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Because of this, I have a problem with P2. If DNA is the result of unguided natural forces as scientists hypothesize from the available evidence, then it is not information, <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">but </ins>informationoid, <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">and both C1 and C2 are wrong</ins>.  </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Now, if, for the sake of argument, we assume that a god ''did'' create the universe, then determining if DNA is information depends on what type of god we're considering. If we posit a [[deism|deist]] god, one who set the universe in motion by creating fundamental laws which allowed the world to progress and evolve on its own, but didn't personally craft every thing in existence with a specific purpose (and doesn't care who wins the Super Bowl), then DNA still arose from natural unguided forces. So, for a deist god, DNA would still be informationoid, not information. If we consider a very involved "hands on" type of god, one that personally created DNA to be a recipe for living things (and does care who wins the Super Bowl), <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">in that case, </del>DNA would be information. However, if we assume a god created DNA, it raises a whole new set of questions about why our messy genomes appear to be crafted, not through intelligent design, but through mutation guided by natural selection.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">An additional problem occurs with P2 in that is begs the question. How does the arguer know DNA is information? Because it came from an intelligent mind. How does the arguer know it came from an intelligent mind? Because it's information. This is circular reasoning. It's not enough to just claim that DNA is information because you can't think of a natural cause, you must demonstrate that it is not informationoid as all the evidence suggests, but actually created by a designer with a purpose.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Now, if, for the sake of argument, we assume that a god ''did'' create the universe, then determining if DNA is information depends on what type of god we're considering. If we posit a [[deism|deist]] god, one who set the universe in motion by creating fundamental laws which allowed the world to progress and evolve on its own, but didn't personally craft every thing in existence with a specific purpose (and doesn't care who wins the Super Bowl), then DNA still arose from natural unguided forces. So, for a deist god, DNA would still be informationoid, not information. If we consider a very involved "hands on" type of god, one that personally created DNA to be a recipe for living things (and does care who wins the Super Bowl), <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">then </ins>DNA would be information. However, if we assume a god created DNA, it raises a whole new set of questions about why our messy genomes appear to be crafted, not through intelligent design, but through mutation guided by natural selection.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I agree with preposition 3. All scientific evidence points to DNA arising billions of years ago, while conscious intelligence capable of creating information only millions of years ago. Of course, I always find this an odd allowance for the religious. They're willing to accept the scientific consensus of the Earth's old natural time line, yet they refuse to accept a natural origin for DNA. To me, this appears to be special pleading. It's as though they're arguing that everything is natural, except the things that they think their god created.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I agree with preposition 3. All scientific evidence points to DNA arising billions of years ago, while conscious intelligence capable of creating information only millions of years ago. Of course, I always find this an odd allowance for the religious. They're willing to accept the scientific consensus of the Earth's old natural time line, yet they refuse to accept a natural origin for DNA. To me, this appears to be special pleading. It's as though they're arguing that everything is natural, except the things that they think their god created.</div></td></tr>
</table>TheAlmightyGuruhttp://thealmightyguru.com/Wiki/index.php?title=Does_DNA_prove_a_god_exists%3F&diff=41235&oldid=prevTheAlmightyGuru at 20:45, 9 July 20212021-07-09T20:45:02Z<p></p>
<table class="diff diff-contentalign-left" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr style="vertical-align: top;" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: white; color:black; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: white; color:black; text-align: center;">Revision as of 20:45, 9 July 2021</td>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Now, if, for the sake of argument, we assume that a god ''did'' create the universe, then determining if DNA is information depends on what type of god we're considering. If we posit a [[deism|deist]] god, one who set the universe in motion by creating fundamental laws which allowed the world to progress and evolve on its own, but didn't personally craft every thing in existence with a specific purpose (and doesn't care who wins the Super Bowl), then DNA still arose from natural unguided forces. So, for a deist god, DNA would still be informationoid, not information. If we consider a very involved "hands on" type of god, one that personally created DNA to be a recipe for living things (and does care who wins the Super Bowl), in that case, DNA would be information. However, if we assume a god created DNA, it raises a whole new set of questions about why our messy genomes appear to be crafted, not through intelligent design, but through mutation guided by natural selection.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Now, if, for the sake of argument, we assume that a god ''did'' create the universe, then determining if DNA is information depends on what type of god we're considering. If we posit a [[deism|deist]] god, one who set the universe in motion by creating fundamental laws which allowed the world to progress and evolve on its own, but didn't personally craft every thing in existence with a specific purpose (and doesn't care who wins the Super Bowl), then DNA still arose from natural unguided forces. So, for a deist god, DNA would still be informationoid, not information. If we consider a very involved "hands on" type of god, one that personally created DNA to be a recipe for living things (and does care who wins the Super Bowl), in that case, DNA would be information. However, if we assume a god created DNA, it raises a whole new set of questions about why our messy genomes appear to be crafted, not through intelligent design, but through mutation guided by natural selection.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I agree with preposition 3. All <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">the </del>evidence points to DNA arising billions of years ago, while conscious intelligence capable of creating information <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">appears to have </del>only <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">arisen </del>millions of years ago. Conclusion 2 is also based on the presumption that DNA is information, so, unless P2 can be demonstrated, it too is faulty.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I agree with preposition 3. All <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">scientific </ins>evidence points to DNA arising billions of years ago, while conscious intelligence capable of creating information only millions of years ago. <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Of course, I always find this an odd allowance for the religious. They're willing to accept the scientific consensus of the Earth's old natural time line, yet they refuse to accept a natural origin for DNA. To me, this appears to be special pleading. It's as though they're arguing that everything is natural, except the things that they think their god created.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Conclusion 2 is also based on the presumption that DNA is information, so, unless P2 can be demonstrated, it too is faulty.</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==Media==</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==Media==</div></td></tr>
</table>TheAlmightyGuruhttp://thealmightyguru.com/Wiki/index.php?title=Does_DNA_prove_a_god_exists%3F&diff=41231&oldid=prevTheAlmightyGuru: /* Media */2021-07-09T20:24:01Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Media</span></span></p>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==Media==</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==Media==</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>{{<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">#ev:youtube</del>|dhHwPoSp7AU<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">|256|inline</del>|Genetically Modified Skeptic.<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">|frame</del>}}</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>{{<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">YouTube</ins>|dhHwPoSp7AU|Genetically Modified Skeptic.}}</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==Links==</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==Links==</div></td></tr>
</table>TheAlmightyGuruhttp://thealmightyguru.com/Wiki/index.php?title=Does_DNA_prove_a_god_exists%3F&diff=33932&oldid=prevTheAlmightyGuru at 20:36, 4 June 20202020-06-04T20:36:22Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>[[Category: Philosophy]]</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>[[Category: Philosophy]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[[Category: Religion]]</ins></div></td></tr>
</table>TheAlmightyGuruhttp://thealmightyguru.com/Wiki/index.php?title=Does_DNA_prove_a_god_exists%3F&diff=33931&oldid=prevTheAlmightyGuru at 20:36, 4 June 20202020-06-04T20:36:09Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Usually it's pretty obvious what is information and what isn't, but sometimes something can look like information when it isn't. A text message of "hi" from one person to another is a small piece of information, but if a lightning bolt strikes the ground and leaves behind a scorch mark which looks like the word "hi," it is [[informationoid]]; it looks like information, but isn't. Despite the visual similarities, the lightning bolt is an unguided unthinking natural phenomena, and, therefore incapable of conveying meaning or understanding. We frequently see things in nature which are informationoid like rocks, plants, and clouds which appear to look like the letters, numbers, and symbols people use as information.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Usually it's pretty obvious what is information and what isn't, but sometimes something can look like information when it isn't. A text message of "hi" from one person to another is a small piece of information, but if a lightning bolt strikes the ground and leaves behind a scorch mark which looks like the word "hi," it is [[informationoid]]; it looks like information, but isn't. Despite the visual similarities, the lightning bolt is an unguided unthinking natural phenomena, and, therefore incapable of conveying meaning or understanding. We frequently see things in nature which are informationoid like rocks, plants, and clouds which appear to look like the letters, numbers, and symbols people use as information.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Because of this, I have a problem with P2. If DNA is the result of unguided natural forces as scientists hypothesize <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">based on </del>the available evidence, then it is not information. It also means that conclusion 1 becomes circular reasoning. How <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">do we </del>know DNA is information? Because it came from an intelligent mind. How <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">do we </del>know it came from an intelligent mind? Because it's information. This is faulty logic. If you want to claim that DNA is information, you must demonstrate that it is not informationoid as all the evidence suggests.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Because of this, I have a problem with P2. If DNA is the result of unguided natural forces as scientists hypothesize <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">from </ins>the available evidence, then it is not information. It also means that conclusion 1 becomes circular reasoning. How <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">does the arguer </ins>know DNA is information? Because it came from an intelligent mind. How <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">does the arguer </ins>know it came from an intelligent mind? Because it's information. This is faulty logic. If you want to claim that DNA is information, you must demonstrate that it is not informationoid as all the evidence suggests<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">, but actually created by a designer with a purpose</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Now, if, for the sake of argument, we assume that a god did create the universe, then determining if DNA is information depends on what type of god we're considering. If we posit a [[deism|deist]] god, one who set the universe in motion by creating fundamental laws which allowed the world to progress and evolve on its own, but didn't personally craft every thing in existence with a specific purpose<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">, </del>and doesn't care <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">which sports teams win</del>, then DNA still arose from natural unguided forces <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">that god created</del>. So, for a deist god, DNA would still not <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">be </del>information. If we consider a very involved "hands on" type of god, one that personally created DNA to be a recipe for living things, in that case, DNA would be information. However, if we assume a god created DNA, it raises a whole new set of questions <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">of </del>why genomes appear to be crafted, not through intelligent design, but through mutation guided by natural selection.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Now, if, for the sake of argument, we assume that a god <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">''</ins>did<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">'' </ins>create the universe, then determining if DNA is information depends on what type of god we're considering. If we posit a [[deism|deist]] god, one who set the universe in motion by creating fundamental laws which allowed the world to progress and evolve on its own, but didn't personally craft every thing in existence with a specific purpose <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">(</ins>and doesn't care <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">who wins the Super Bowl)</ins>, then DNA still arose from natural unguided forces. So, for a deist god, DNA would still <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">be informationoid, </ins>not information. If we consider a very involved "hands on" type of god, one that personally created DNA to be a recipe for living things <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">(and does care who wins the Super Bowl)</ins>, in that case, DNA would be information. However, if we assume a god created DNA, it raises a whole new set of questions <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">about </ins>why <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">our messy </ins>genomes appear to be crafted, not through intelligent design, but through mutation guided by natural selection.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I agree with preposition 3. All the evidence points to DNA arising billions of years ago, while conscious intelligence capable of creating information appears to have only arisen millions of years ago. Conclusion 2 is also based on the presumption that DNA is information, so, unless P2 can be demonstrated, it too is faulty.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I agree with preposition 3. All the evidence points to DNA arising billions of years ago, while conscious intelligence capable of creating information appears to have only arisen millions of years ago. Conclusion 2 is also based on the presumption that DNA is information, so, unless P2 can be demonstrated, it too is faulty.</div></td></tr>
</table>TheAlmightyGuruhttp://thealmightyguru.com/Wiki/index.php?title=Does_DNA_prove_a_god_exists%3F&diff=33930&oldid=prevTheAlmightyGuru: /* Criticisms */2020-06-04T20:29:22Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Criticisms</span></span></p>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Information is that which increases understanding. Words and numbers are often used to help increase understanding, so they ''can'' be information, but that doesn't mean they're ''always'' information. For example, if you write a text message to your friend where you describe your day, that message is information, because the message allows your friend to know what your day was like. However, if you sent your friend a text message of words typed at random, that message would not be information, since no understanding can be gleaned from it.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Information is that which increases understanding. Words and numbers are often used to help increase understanding, so they ''can'' be information, but that doesn't mean they're ''always'' information. For example, if you write a text message to your friend where you describe your day, that message is information, because the message allows your friend to know what your day was like. However, if you sent your friend a text message of words typed at random, that message would not be information, since no understanding can be gleaned from it.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>[[Image:Does DNA prove a god exists - Clouds.png|thumb|256x256px|Unguided natural forces often <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">give the illusion of being </del>designed <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">by </del>an intelligent <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">creator when looked at by </del>an <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">intelligent creator</del>.]]</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color:black; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>[[Image:Does DNA prove a god exists - Clouds.png|thumb|256x256px|Unguided natural forces often <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">look </ins>designed <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">to </ins>an intelligent <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">observer, but this is merely </ins>an <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">illusion</ins>.]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Usually it's pretty obvious what is information and what isn't, but sometimes something can look like information when it isn't. A text message of "hi" from one person to another is a small piece of information, but if a lightning bolt strikes the ground and leaves behind a scorch mark which looks like the word "hi," it is [[informationoid]]; it looks like information, but isn't. Despite the visual similarities, the lightning bolt is an unguided unthinking natural phenomena, and, therefore incapable of conveying meaning or understanding. We frequently see things in nature which are informationoid like rocks, plants, and clouds which appear to look like the letters, numbers, and symbols people use as information.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f9f9f9; color: #333333; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #e6e6e6; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Usually it's pretty obvious what is information and what isn't, but sometimes something can look like information when it isn't. A text message of "hi" from one person to another is a small piece of information, but if a lightning bolt strikes the ground and leaves behind a scorch mark which looks like the word "hi," it is [[informationoid]]; it looks like information, but isn't. Despite the visual similarities, the lightning bolt is an unguided unthinking natural phenomena, and, therefore incapable of conveying meaning or understanding. We frequently see things in nature which are informationoid like rocks, plants, and clouds which appear to look like the letters, numbers, and symbols people use as information.</div></td></tr>
</table>TheAlmightyGuru